The Legacy Martial Arts Business Podcast

Sam (00:01.016)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Legacy Martial Arts Business Podcast. Today we have a very special guest, Milena. Actually tell me how to say your last name because I'm going to butcher it if I don't ask you.

Milena Hrebacka (00:12.062)
It's a weird one. Hrebacka. Milena Hrebacka.

Sam (00:14.872)
Okay. That's what I would have said. Okay. So, Melana Hrebacka. Melana is the founder of New Breed Design. She founded it in 2009. She's been blazing a trail through the graphic design and marketing industry ever since then. So she has, man, so much experience. New Breed Design is the modern gym owner's best friend, serving in the areas of branding, print and web marketing, website design, development, custom,

merchandise and even event planning. So she does it all. She's also co -founder of Boss Thai Boxing and Muay Thai in Kempville. So also a lifelong martial artist has been training for over a decade now. And she is really our go -to expert on everything's graphic design. So welcome, Melana, to our podcast.

Milena Hrebacka (01:04.734)
That's so kind of you. Thank you so much, Sam. I'm so excited to have this conversation.

Sam (01:09.784)
us too.

Nick Castiglia (01:10.99)
Yeah, so that was like a crazy intro, like took away half of my questions there. I already said you're training for 12 years. I'm just gonna talk about it anyways, because like, I think it's really important and I know martial arts school owners don't think about it, that I think it's really important to have a graphic designer that has grown up.

Milena Hrebacka (01:16.094)
I'm sorry.

Sam (01:19.736)
Ha ha.

Milena Hrebacka (01:21.054)
Mm -hmm.

Nick Castiglia (01:40.91)
in the martial arts industry and understands the culture and the vibe of it. Like, what do you think about what do you think about what I'm saying?

Milena Hrebacka (01:41.502)
Mmm. Yeah?

Milena Hrebacka (01:53.438)
I, you're spot on and it's true that you don't work with a lot of designers or marketing professionals for that matter that are living the life of this, of their client, of the gym owner. But I was at a point, a client looking for a gym. And what sold me on getting into the gym I started at was a community of people. It wasn't just the product. It was, it was a lot of things. So what I like to talk about with my gym owner clients is,

If you're going to leave your Jim's brand alone in a room with somebody, is that going to be enough to convince them to to join and to pay you money, good money for your services and your products? Because that's basically where your first impression is taking place. It's alone in a room. It's online. It's before they can speak to a human being before they can even step on your mats. But my experience coming up in this in this industry as a consumer was a little baffled.

there was not a lot of tension and care given to the marketing, to the bottom line consumer, to even the people that sweat on the mats every single day for years did not receive a whole lot of recognition and appreciation. And that's something that we work really hard to achieve in our gyms now is to make sure that we are retaining those clients and not just looking for the new ones.

We've grown in a lot of ways. There's a lot of angles we could take with that question, but I'll just say for now, especially as a female that came up in martial arts, there's a lot more intention that we put into marketing to women and making it feel inclusive than was what the experience that I had.

Nick Castiglia (03:34.734)
So, you know, like what, like, you kind of, you touched on it a little bit there, but like, what are the big, you know, differences for, you know, cause I think we can go like two different directions. Can talk about branding, can talk about marketing. So maybe first let's talk about the branding. Like, is there, is there anything that like stands out that you want to say to like, you know,

Say somebody has their martial arts school, they're watching this and they've never had a proper graphic designer kind of disaster and they're looking to make their brand really stand out as a martial arts school, inclusive to all. What would you tell them is like, listen, buddy, here's your top three things you got to do.

Milena Hrebacka (04:14.718)
Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (04:32.463)
What would be the top three things to make your martial arts brand stand out?

Milena Hrebacka (04:36.83)
Well, any amount of money you're going to spend on refreshing your brand or working with a professional is going to make itself back within a calendar year, guaranteed. Every client that I've worked with that has a startup gym that's been established and they used maybe a student of their own gym to do their graphics and their branding, or they hired out to a very economically priced professional or went online and did the Fiverr route, they've all come to me eventually.

It's going to happen. You're going to find yourself a proper professional to do the job, right? Maybe, and I can excuse that, right? Maybe in the beginning, it's just not in the books. Maybe the numbers aren't there. Maybe you just can't financially support that endeavor. Maybe you just need to get those doors open as soon as possible to start making bank. And you've kind of put the branding on the back burner. Obviously, I'm going to suggest you incorporate that into your startup budget. I think it's just as important as your rental, as your...

equipment as your staffing as everything else that needs to be on the bottom line. But if you missed it on startup and you've been established for a couple of years now, those are the clients that are coming to me the most often is they realize now, okay, we're actually profitable. We have a student base that's reliable. We have cash flow. Where can we put our money that's like responsible and will help us grow? The brand is should be number one. And the reason that is is kind of why I touched on it earlier was.

People aren't going to sign on to the culture of your gym and they're not going to make themselves a part of your family unless they can relate and identify with your brand. It's really, really important that your brand actually speaks about who you are. These gyms have changed a lot since they started and they've refined their skills and they've refined their services and they no longer even use the same language. It's really important that you sit down with someone like me.

We have a good hour long zoom call and we talk about what are your main messages that you want to get out to your ideal demographic? Who do you want to see on your mass? And we're going to speak to those people. And by speak, it's not just in the written message. It's the visual message of your brand. Visually, what are you saying? You're saying, okay, we're competitor focused, we're really strong, edgy brand image or family focused. We're really inviting and friendly looking and warm.

Milena Hrebacka (06:56.382)
or down to earth, we're just here to recreationally train. We're not gonna push anybody to compete. It all comes through in that brand identity. And so if that's lacking, or if it doesn't align with the services that they actually experience once they come in for the trial, it's gonna feel disingenuous. There's gonna feel like a disconnect. It's gonna be very, very hard to make that sale if somebody expected one thing going in and experienced something completely different.

At the same time, just getting them in the door is going to be really difficult if you're not showing up professionally in the virtual world.

Sam (07:29.944)
Yep. I had to.

Nick Castiglia (07:31.118)
So go ahead.

Sam (07:33.944)
Well, that made me think of, you know, and this isn't the like legacy promo podcast, but something we talk about with our clients a lot that's really important is what their mission is. What is their mission? And that definitely relates to, it's not the same, but it relates to the identity of their school. So what I was hearing from you is that it's really important to know that and to understand that. So maybe that's something that.

Milena Hrebacka (07:45.054)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (07:51.71)
Yeah.

Sam (07:59.672)
anyone listening who's thinking of starting a gym or has a gym, maybe sit down and like, okay, what is my mission? What is my brand? What do I want people to see? And then if it's not, you know, new breed design, but they're ready to go to that professional, would you say that would be like one of the number one things that they could take with them?

Milena Hrebacka (08:17.342)
Yeah, it's the first question that we ask in our consultation. We gather it in the pre -consult form online as we want to know, first of all, what are your core values? What's your mission for your business? Who's your demographic and what are your goals so that we know what you're working towards?

Sam (08:33.271)
Got it.

Nick Castiglia (08:34.254)
Yeah, and I think, I think you nailed, because you talked on the branding part, you're like, okay, you know, and I do want to touch on that, but you, you talked about the brand. Okay. Here's our brand. Here's what it is. We got to put that out to everybody, but you also touched on that's not enough. Like you need that. And then you need the community part or else you just have.

Milena Hrebacka (09:00.126)
Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (09:02.894)
maybe, you know, like a nine round fitness or something or five, you know, where it's like, in out like oscillating doors. It's not, you know, is it, is it a community? I'm sure they think they're a community, you know, but all of us know that as per the martial arts, like it's a much more, in depth intimate community than just like show up, do your class, go home, you know, and there's a lot more connection than that.

Milena Hrebacka (09:06.462)
Right, right.

Nick Castiglia (09:32.686)
However, what I will say, I think, and I think you're gonna agree with this, is it's the, you know, for lack of better words, it's the packaging that brings us in.

Milena Hrebacka (09:45.63)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Nick Castiglia (09:46.958)
Right? Like how, you know, how many things in our life do we purchase literally because of the packaging? Clothes is a great example. I don't know. I'll give an example like Jordans, you know, it's like Jordans for people that love basketball is that's like, you know, linked to Michael Jordan, the greatest ever, you know, and it, and it looks like a nice shoe or beautiful shoe. Like I don't wear them cause I don't care about basketball, but

I'm sure for basketball people, they're like, wow, this is like, and how many people are buying Jordans because of the packaging? Like, do you agree with that, Milena?

Milena Hrebacka (10:27.358)
And this is, I use similar metaphors when I try to explain what I'm doing with a new client, with their brand. A brand is intangible. It's really hard to put a value to it. But when you really start talking about it in terms of how are we going to apply it to everyday life in your business and actual products, then it starts to feel valuable. Then it starts to feel like, okay, so you're telling me that you're not just going to design me a logo. You're going to design me a fleet of custom gear.

that now displays the logo in a really sexy, appealing way that people are going to want to wear. And people are wearing their Jim's brands, whether they're good looking or not, because they have pride. So as long as you are designing or if you're putting out a good product and a good service that people are proud to represent, then you've done half the work. The other half is making sure they actually look good wearing it because then you want people outside of your tribe to be buying into your brand.

And I'm going to tell you from real life experience, the boss gear that I design is being picked up by people who have never trained Muay Thai and they don't even really know what it is, but they're so in love with the culture. They do. The only reason we don't retail online is because we're short staffed or else we'd be selling our stuff online and it would be selling. Other gyms are buying our gear. They're not even repping their own brand before they want to rep ours. And so that's the value there. That's the value of a good brand.

Sam (11:53.687)
amazing.

Nick Castiglia (11:54.318)
Yeah, go ahead, Sam, do you have something?

Sam (11:58.744)
yeah, I was going to say when, like, what do you think is?

Like I can, I can speak from like the things that our clients say, but what is we communicate why this is so valuable and why that they need to add it to their budget. I know you did that a little bit already, but what would be the first thing? Like if they could only afford one or two things at first to build to their brand or have the professional design, what do you think those would be? Like the two, like the two first two assets, let's say.

Milena Hrebacka (12:39.198)
Design school tells me that it starts with your logo because your logo is your most universal branding asset. You're going to use it online, you're going to use it on physical signage outside of your facility, you're going to use it on your business cards, on your merchandise, everywhere. So that's the most universally used asset is your logo. So if your logo sucks, if it's been really hard to use it because it's super busy or low resolution or you had it designed five, 10 years ago and it's just out of date, I would...

Definitely, definitely invest in having that redone from the ground up. Work with a designer that knows brand strategy like myself and talks about it on their website and you can see it in their work. And then really have like a deep dive into your brand and come out with something refreshed and modern that will carry you for the next 10 years. That's a good investment. And then after that, it's whatever sells and makes money for your gym. I would put it on merch, I would put it on gear.

I would monetize that brand and I would try selling it online if you're able to, if you have the staff.

Nick Castiglia (13:39.246)
Okay, I have a question that I think when people, you know, and I remember getting this as a question in the summit that I did when we were talking about the experience and somebody like blurted it out, like, what do you mean? Like, what are you talking about the experience? So like, when we're talking brand, maybe it gave me like, when we're talking brand, what are we talking about? We're obviously, we're talking about the logo, right?

Milena Hrebacka (13:59.902)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Nick Castiglia (14:08.43)
But what else are we talking about that like builds a brand? Like if you're like, here's my 10 things, five things, like give me those things.

Milena Hrebacka (14:16.318)
Yeah, I love this question and really the limits are the limits of your own imagination. But from my experience, the logo design is the logo design. It's a visual device and it's something that you can come away with. For me, my logo design package is $2 ,000. So that's what you come away with for my logo design package. But the brand is every touch point of your business experience. It's everywhere. It's online on your social media presence or your social media graphics and posts branded.

Are those a married look and feel? Does it make sense that someone looking at a Facebook ad that you are putting through socials, does it make sense that they know right away that's your gym? Do they see that visual brand connection? Do they see a brand connection when they're driving past your gym from the street? Do they see it in your storefront? Do they see it maybe in your window decals? Do they feel your brand when they walk into your gym? Are the colors interior design? Are they married to your brand?

And then the merch, the gear, are people showing up sporting your brand? Does it feel like a family? Does it have the feeling you want it to have when they experience your brand in action? And it's literally every touch point that someone experiences in your services or products, it should reflect your brand. It's something that a lot of people go to school to better understand, but if you can find yourself a reliable designer that can help you through it,

I mean, I've held people's hands from when they first opened their doors to their first line of merch, to hosting their first event, and everything is seamlessly branded. And the outpouring of support is so much stronger when there is no doubt that you're gonna get the same experience from this event that you do in the gym, because the brand is strong. It's like a pact or a promise that's being made.

that if you see me here doing this and you see me somewhere else, it's gonna be just as rewarding and just as good an experience for you.

Sam (16:15.032)
Mm.

Sam (16:24.728)
Yeah, that's a, that's amazing. I think you touched on something and Nick can comment on this too, but we visit a lot of schools, sometimes our clients, sometimes on our clients and we've seen their brand online, but you walk in the doors and you're like, wow, this is different. Maybe it smells weird. Maybe like there's weird signs that are like written with handwritten like Sharpie marker up.

I think, and Nick, you can comment on this too, but I think I love how you explained how it's all connected from the moment that they, a new student makes contact with you online or wherever until they walk in the doors and the experience they have there. Because as martial artists, we walk in, we see the same place every day, we're fine, we're good with it, but we don't realize that. Yes.

Milena Hrebacka (17:20.03)
away right? It was like we're married to this.

Sam (17:24.216)
Yeah, so we don't maybe notice little things that need fixed or attention or we don't think about how new students come in and they're giving us a grade like when they come in and try that class, but it's also not just a grade of like how good our businesses are, how likely they are to stay, but also it's a representation of our brand. And I think that's something that's missed. Like what would you say, Neckwith?

Milena Hrebacka (17:47.39)
Yes.

Milena Hrebacka (17:52.862)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. From our experience of opening a gym in 2020 and then riding out the pandemic and now having some pretty good years behind us where, you know, we've been able to really skyrocket our growth. It's all in the details. Even today, this morning, true story, I was in there this morning just doing a weight session before any of the classes came on. And I noticed that there was a corner of our bathroom that hadn't been cleaned.

Sam (17:53.816)
My, yeah.

Sam (18:10.072)
Mm.

Milena Hrebacka (18:21.246)
And I was like, should I say something to the cleaner about this? And then I realized if I'm noticing it, our clients are noticing it. And so that is also the business owner's responsibility. Like it's my jam. If something's not up to my standards, I've had to do something about it. I'm not going to wait for someone to complain if something starts to slip. Cause that's also part of the promise that I'm keeping. I'm collecting the air fees.

Sam (18:29.016)
100%.

Sam (18:41.4)
Yeah.

and

Milena Hrebacka (18:46.814)
from every client that walks through the door. We are not short selling ourselves. We are promising a quality product. It has to be reflected in every detail.

Sam (18:54.424)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. I love that connection because it makes sense when you say it, but I think a lot, there's a lot of people that miss that, you know.

Milena Hrebacka (19:06.59)
I mean, I know also when I was coming up and I was paying fair fees as well in the city to train and the water was watered, sorry, the liquid soap in the bathroom was watered down. I remember using the soap and thinking, they're cheap, they're cheap. I'm paying them a lot of money and they can't buy soap, they have to put water in the soap. That really pissed me off. I was like, I don't like that. It's the little things, right?

Sam (19:28.824)
Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (19:33.342)
But then someone will like a piece of equipment gets broken, right? And we are very quick to like replace the Velcro on our pads if they start to wear down. And here I am also old school thinking, they're fine. Leave them. You know, we've, we've worked worse. We've worked with so much worse, you know, pads with the buckles that are broken, that don't stay on. I was like, we got through, we didn't complain. But no, my husband's on the other side being like, I won't tolerate this. We're going to go get these things fixed. We're going to buy new ones. And he's constantly reinvesting in the equipment.

Sam (19:33.4)
Yeah.

Sam (19:44.76)
Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (20:03.358)
training our staff, making sure that the service level is the same across the board, no matter who you train with. Yeah, it's obviously there are some boundaries that need to be held and that's maybe good for another conversation on like work -life balance. But to an extent, everything within the physical brick and mortar of your gym is the business owner's responsibility unless you have a manager you can delegate to. But you need to notice the little things because that...

reflects on your brand more than a crappy poster design and I do all of the design for our gym so we invest quite a lot and I like I pay myself for that work so I know how much we invest in marketing and it's a lot it's a lot I'm gonna say between 200 and 300 a month we pay in graphic design and marketing and then when we do like a big like a Facebook ad campaign push we spend another hundred dollars on that so it can fluctuate depending on the season but

Sam (20:35.352)
Hmm.

Milena Hrebacka (20:59.806)
You need to build into your business model, your revenues, that expense category of monthly ongoing graphic design and marketing in addition to all of the other necessities.

Nick Castiglia (21:05.902)
HAAA -HUH -HUH -

Nick Castiglia (21:15.566)
Yeah, I kind of want to touch back on, you know, the story we were talking about, and I don't mind sharing it.

We had just brought, it was mine and Mark's first show, and first show since on our own, me and Mark and myself together. And we hired you and I knew it was gonna be a little bit more on the higher end of cost. And I think it was like two or $3 ,000. It was something without a f -

Milena Hrebacka (21:52.254)
Something like that, yeah.

Nick Castiglia (21:53.134)
It was developing the whole look for our kickboxing show, which is Legacy Kickboxing Championships, which I love, not just because I love it or whatever. Okay. I still, I love it because of the imaging you had created. And it was like a very, it was like a very rocky ask look and feel. If I were to compare it, I'd say it's like,

Milena Hrebacka (22:04.798)
Mm -hmm.

Milena Hrebacka (22:19.422)
Mm -hmm.

Nick Castiglia (22:22.638)
the grit of like Rocky, but with like the elegance of like Caesar's Palace, vagueness, kind of like back cross, you know? So it had that grit fight feel to it, but also had that like bright lights feel to it as well. And I said it, you know, like that show, and I'll say it here, and I don't care if people like, don't like, I don't care, but.

Milena Hrebacka (22:27.166)
Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (22:49.454)
you know, that show like grossed over like $50 ,000 and nobody had ever, this is the first show, you know, this is the first show. So yes, our mine and Mark's reputation is tied to it. Yes. However, there is also the, the packaging people are seeing the packaging. They're getting enticed by the packaging. They're like, wow, that looks something.

Milena Hrebacka (22:56.958)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (23:19.407)
that's like really cool that I wanna go to that I wanna be a part of. And then we started tying that packaging of the brand into the fighter posters and into the t -shirts and into everything that we're into the round cards, into the programs, which you guys do for us as well. And it actually also helped us sell a ton of sponsorships because you helped us with our sponsorship packages too. So you have this whole,

Milena Hrebacka (23:34.398)
Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (23:45.702)
Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (23:49.678)
program of things. And, you know, we're talking about, you know, making a ton of money off of the packaging. And I think that's what people can't wrap their head around. Instead, they look at, because like I didn't have to, I don't have to pay two, $3 ,000 every time, but I had to pay that to create, to create the epic brand that needed to be out there.

Milena Hrebacka (24:11.326)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (24:18.174)
Yeah, it's like anything that's new, you're going to have the most startup costs at the front. And then over time, it's going to become more and more profitable because you just rinse and repeat or use the same assets again. And we ourselves are running the same show for the 30 year in a row Bushido. And again, for the first year, it was huge startup costs. But we started, we used a hockey arena and we're really hard on ourselves. We're major perfectionists and we've been to...

events of all scales. I mean, Yuki especially, he's traveled the world going to huge events. And of course we had a very high standard for ourselves. But the only venue in our town is a hockey arena. So we just tried to elevate that as much as we could and do everything right that we had experienced poorly in other events, especially hosting us as competitors. We wanted to make sure the competitor experience was second to none. Treat them like VIPs, give them everything that they need, private change rooms.

We really went over above and beyond trying to cater to the coaches and the fighters out of town and the people. The amount of positive feedback we got from this event was incredible. We had literally zero complaints. Every single person loved the show. And do you know why? It all boils down to how it makes them feel. It felt exclusive, even though it was in a hockey arena. We had an amazing DJ blasting the music.

We spent a crap ton of money on visuals, on the lighting, on the decor. We paid our volunteers in t -shirts and food, but we had lots of help. Again, community backing, that was hugely strong, but it's the experience. And it really just began with the poster design. And I designed this poster and I thought, this is going to lead the way through everything that we do. This is going to set the tone.

and it's going to promise everyone exactly what they see here. Excitement is the feeling that they get as soon as they walk through the door, so they walk out. We want it to match up. We need to play out that expectation. Keep that promise. Yeah.

Sam (26:27.352)
Yeah, absolutely.

Nick Castiglia (26:30.446)
Okay, so, you know, I ask this question every podcast. And I'm gonna ask this one to you. And Sam kind of touched on it. She says, you know, like, you start with your logo and the things that you sell.

What are, so you're talking to a gym owner, you know, they're listening to this podcast, you're like, how do I, you know, what are the top three things I can do today to make my brand better or my brand stand out more or to make the biggest difference in my martial arts school brand? Okay, give us your top three.

Milena Hrebacka (27:14.662)
Okay, well if you're happy with your brand, let's start there. Let's say you don't want to change your brand, but you know you could be doing something better, something more. I would find yourself a designer that you can form a relationship with that can help you elevate your brand, whether that is establishing brand standards or some type of manual that we'd create with every logo design we build, every rebranding that we do, we build a brand manual. And that basically,

dictates the look and feel of your brand. It's going to tell you what your fonts are. It's going to tell you what your color palettes are with all the codes so that even if you're working in Canva, you can just copy and paste and there's your brand colors and they're consistent. It's going to tell you what your graphic styles are. And this is something you can work with collaboratively. The designer won't dictate this to you. A good designer is going to ask you a lot of questions and they're going to show you a lot of things you're not going to like before they hit gold.

And that's a process, but it's really worth it. Really, really worth it. Especially if you can wake up every morning and feel like even if you assigned all of your marketing and all of your design work to someone outside of your company that it's being done bang on just right. It's consistent everywhere. The messaging is consistent everywhere that your clientele will see it. And that gives you a peace of mind that I don't know what keeps me up at night as a gym owner, as well as a designer is.

is my virtual assistant using the right fonts when she puts out the newsletter every month. You know, that really bugs me if one little thing is off and it's to that degree of minutiae that you need to take care of your brand. So if you don't have the bandwidth to do it yourself, find someone you can rely on to take care of it for you and whether it is a freelance designer.

And I don't mean you need to find somebody like me necessarily that's been in the business for 10 years with somebody coming out of college who really needs the experience, who's willing to work at a lower price point. They're fine. They're great. Let them run with it. Let them run with it. Play, play and try new things and see what complements your vision of your future. Jim and make sure that that's always in line. That's always at the forefront. So that would be number one. Find yourself a reliable designer, somebody that you can call on with a couple of days notice.

Milena Hrebacka (29:34.526)
with a poster design request or an ad campaign. And they can jump and be ready to help you because everything's so much more efficient once you actually have a reliable brand in place. It's easier. It just turns out fast when you're not starting from scratch every time. That's number one. And again, it might take some startup costs. It might take some, you know, a baseline cost to get that started, but it is a hundred percent worth it. And it pays you out in dividends, you know, in the years to come. If you have a reliable brand, it only gets stronger.

the more you build on it instead of it changing every year. It becomes unreliable. It's a broken brand. People don't trust what changes constantly. If I were to change the name of my gym every year out of boredom or to stay competitive for whatever reason I come up with that I have to start over from scratch earning everyone's trust. They're going to wonder what else has changed. Is it what else is inconsistent? And these are all subliminal messages too. So it's subliminally is is where we want to stay consistent.

So we're keeping our promise so that they keep coming back and having the good experience and that builds faith and trust and that relational strength with your clientele. So yes, the brand needs to be on point everywhere you go. Let me see. Secondly, honestly, it's the physical part of your gym. It's the physical nature of your gym. It needs to be up to snuff. It needs to be, it needs to hold up under the most.

critical people's gaze, because you're going to have all kinds of people come through your gym. They're not just going to be down to earth jujitsu guys who live in their pajamas. They're going to be business people. They're going to be from all walks of life. And they have scrutiny. And they should, especially if you want to charge for a premium product, which you should also. If you're delivering a premium service and charging a premium price point, everything needs to match up.

Sam (31:21.496)
Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (31:29.342)
with the experience. So I would invest in for us, you know, we're building a new facility. We're lucky that we have the means to do so, but the facility right now is too small. We've outgrown our mats. So we're building a new facility. But if we didn't have the means to do that, we would just be moving into another rental unit that has like double the square footage and renovating that because we need to reinvest. And that's part of being a business owner also is reinvesting in the experience in the product and not just sitting on your mountain of wealth.

and churning out people that will only stay because they don't care for how things fall apart. It's also not your ideal clientele, is it? I mean, I wouldn't want my gym filled with people who don't care about the details. It's not a strong community that way. Just build a strong community. It's all tied in, right? It's all ties together. The physical experience, the brand experience, digitally, online, the marketing experience, and the

quality of people, it all kind of meets at the same standard. So, and then my third one would be staffing and the human experience that they receive throughout working with your business is it's important to consistently seek staff training. And I have Nick to thank for that. And, you know, the legacy coaching that, you know, my husband's been on the call since we opened the gym and we've done the staff training a few times now and we hold staff training.

privately in our own gym and to train our staff. And we built up our own brand manual to do that. It's really important that everyone is carrying the same message forward, whether they're talking to the parent of a child student, to a teen student, to a young adult or to a senior, that they're all getting the same treatment and that everyone knows everything there is to know about your business. They need to be educated in how you want your business run.

and they're your face of the business when you're not in the room. So it's really important that you keep that up to date as well. I know I kind of, I kind of a segue out of design talk, but those for me are the three most important ways you can reinvest in your business. Start with a solid brand, the physical nature of your gym and the human experience, training your staff.

Nick Castiglia (33:47.47)
Yeah, I feel like it all ties together and I like, you know, obviously we're having you here speaking because we know how important this is, your portion of the piece. However, what I also appreciate is that you're also citing things like the physical actual component. Otherwise you're just another snake oil salesman, right? Like,

Sam (33:48.056)
It's all your.

Milena Hrebacka (33:52.094)
It does.

Milena Hrebacka (34:15.742)
Exactly. Exactly.

Nick Castiglia (34:17.038)
like, hey, you know, come buy this thing here. It looks really good. okay. You know, like, and then, you know, they go show up and they're like, like, this isn't what the look like in the pictures. Right. And I like how you tied in the the staffing as well because, you know, and I and I coach and clients, you know, all the time every day.

Milena Hrebacka (34:29.438)
Exactly, they're not gonna sign. They're not gonna sign. Yeah.

Sam (34:31.768)
Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (34:45.006)
and always with newer clients. And I don't blame people. I think it's just the way we're hardwired as humans, but a lot of people ask what they call is blanket questions. So they want an answer that like blankets everything like, so do I just need to do this for my logo? You know, and it's like, it's like you said, it's like your mission, your morals, your values, your vibe, your feel, your focus. And then like,

Milena Hrebacka (35:02.974)
haha

Milena Hrebacka (35:13.982)
Yes.

Nick Castiglia (35:15.022)
What is the brand? Well, the brand is like the sign, the windows, the website, you know, the merge, like, and how do all those things tie together? Like it's not, you only gotta stop, stop looking for the magic pill because there is none, you know?

Milena Hrebacka (35:26.174)
Okay.

Milena Hrebacka (35:31.966)
Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like when you feel like your business has plateaued, that's when things have gotten complacent. So if you've noticed that there's no longer a trickling of interest, that that has kind of like waned, what is no longer up to par is where does it fall off? Because people are not going to tell you, they're not going to be upfront with you if they had a bad experience. And they're not going to tell you where because maybe they don't even know.

Sam (35:34.584)
Yeah.

Sam (35:41.24)
Mm.

Milena Hrebacka (35:58.59)
to be honest, like maybe something just in their gut told them, this isn't for me. So they don't even know how to tell you what went wrong or where, but it is your responsibility if you want your business to continue to grow, if you're seeking growth, that to recognize when your brand has become outdated or when it started to fall apart because maybe it's being managed by too many different hands and they don't quite keep it consistent enough.

Sam (35:58.808)
Mm.

Nick Castiglia (36:20.078)
Mm -hmm.

Milena Hrebacka (36:24.222)
And you mentioned a good thing too, Nick, is that the website converts people for you. It's a money -making tool. It's something that needs to be invested in. It's not supposed to be a quick pop -up solution. It's not really meant for that. It should be thoughtful. It should reflect your brand. It should be the embodiment of your brand online, even before someone finds you on social media. If they go to your website through Google search, it should be your best salesman. It should have a picture -perfect pitch.

It should have the perfect way to take action to start working with you, to start experiencing in person. It should be bridging that gap and making it extremely easy for someone to go from finding you online to walking through your doors. And that's something that a strategic web professional needs to walk through with you. And it can cost upwards of $10 ,000 and that's normal. So just be prepared when you hear those price points that that's normal. No one's taking you for a ride. It does take a lot of time.

and intentional strategy to make a good converting website. But that is something else that should be on your bottom line. If you don't have a decent website, if you don't see the consoles coming in once a day or more, you don't have a good website. You should probably talk to somebody about that because our website gets leads every single day. There's somebody popping in and that's just job. It's working for you overnight. It's your hardest worker 24 seven. So yeah.

Sam (37:41.304)
See you.

Sam (37:47.096)
So you're saying.

Milena Hrebacka (37:48.254)
I went off on a little bit of a pitch there, but you triggered something in me about websites.

Sam (37:53.176)
No, we love it. We think the same thing too, because I was going to add, so it seems like you're saying you don't want your buddy who does this a little bit on the side, didn't go to school to build your website for you. So you're saying, because we see it all the time. Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (38:10.078)
Yeah, anybody can build a website. Anybody can build a website. If I open my front door and yelled outside, somebody would be able to build me a website. But it won't actually convert. It won't actually do anything for you. Yeah, I mean, everything.

Sam (38:18.904)
Yeah.

Sam (38:23.224)
Yes, yes.

Nick Castiglia (38:24.462)
It's like the bro science of martial arts gyms. Yeah, I traded it for my friend for like six month membership, but I still can't get the hours updated.

Milena Hrebacka (38:28.414)
I'm sorry.

Milena Hrebacka (38:37.726)
Yeah

Sam (38:37.976)
I got

Nick Castiglia (38:40.078)
No, like, and I'm just like, man, no, like you pay professionals to do your website professionally and you hold them to a professional standard.

Sam (38:40.92)
No, I -

Sam (38:45.624)
Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (38:52.99)
Absolutely. It's the first staff member anybody's going to meet. Your website is a staff member. It's someone that is telling someone about your gym. It's showing them what it looks like. And it's asking them if they want to come in and try a class. So that better be a really good looking, compelling staff member.

Sam (38:57.208)
Yep.

Sam (39:12.824)
Yep.

Nick Castiglia (39:13.71)
Okay. Martial arts, bro. Science question number two. Okay. Fiber. I did it. I get on fire. I just go fiber, bro. Like, what do you think? What are your thoughts on that? I'm not hating on fiber. I think there's, there's great things you could find on fiber, but like you're the expert. Give me pros and cons. and not, you know, I have clients who use fiber all the time guys. I'm not hating. Okay. I'm just saying that I would prefer to use a professional like Malayna. I use you, you know, I use you for everything for my schools, either my events like.

Milena Hrebacka (39:16.318)
Fire.

Milena Hrebacka (39:23.006)
No! Okay. Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (39:43.854)
There's a reason, okay? What are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on that?

Milena Hrebacka (39:45.054)
Mm -hmm.

Sam (39:46.232)
Legacy Consulting.

Milena Hrebacka (39:49.054)
There's a time and a place for every tool that's ever been created. And I think that Fiverr serves a lot of people. And it does have value, but not all the time. Not all the time. Please God, don't use Fiverr to design your logo because it'll be a template because there will be a lookalike out there guaranteed because that's how they make money. A literal real designer is not going to design you.

an original logo for $5. That math doesn't compute. It's a logo that already exists with 10, 20, 200 other businesses. So think about that. Think about that. And also, yes, you can use it to do a very quick social graphic. Great. Maybe it'll look cute. Maybe it'll look good. It's also templated, so keep that in mind. But by templated, I mean it's going to be reused by other people, by other companies. That's the only way they can turn out.

that work in such a quick timeframe for such a small profit is everything is pre -used, like pre -owned. Think of it that way. It's never custom, even if it says that it's custom, that's not true. But there's a time and a place. So if, you know, I was generating 10 to 30 social media posts a month, maybe I would turn to Fiverr because those things have a lifespan of 24 hours to a week on social media. So they're there and gone.

before you know it. Something that, okay, here's a thought. Your investment in an intangible piece of design, such as your brand, should be proportionate to how long you need it to perform for you. So, yeah, if you are planning to, I'm not even gonna use the gym brand example, I'll use an event brand example. If you're planning on doing a one -off event, one time only, I'm not planning on doing this ever again.

then you can probably afford to go, I won't say afford, you could probably get away with investing a little less than you would an event that you plan on running consecutively annually for the foreseeable future. Because I understand also the math of finances and it depends on how much you gain to profit from those events and how much of that profit you want to put towards your startup costs. So there is some math at play for sure. You don't want to hire someone like me.

Milena Hrebacka (42:13.726)
to design a $2 ,000 logo for an event you plan to run one time. That doesn't really make sense. But I would find that out from you in our consult and I'd probably go ahead and suggest a different approach if I knew that this was a one -time thing. But for Bushido, we plan on running it for the foreseeable future every single year. So we are investing every year in a brand new poster design. I refresh everything. I just like tighten it a little better so I notice things the next year that I did the year before.

Nick Castiglia (42:22.798)
Yes.

Milena Hrebacka (42:42.398)
I do things a little bit better and it takes time and it takes money, but we always make it back. We always, always, always make a profit and it's a healthy profit. We almost don't even recognize the design budget at the end of the show because it's, we've just, it's paid for itself. So when it comes to things like fiber, yes, it's very compelling to say, I could just have somebody do this for me for $5. Whereas this woman is quoting me 50 for the same product.

It's not the same product, don't fool yourself.

Sam (43:15.608)
Well, I have a question. Because we, we see this a lot. And you don't have to be nice. How, how does somebody know that their logo is bad? And we all know there are bad logos out there right now that exist. How do I know if my logo is bad?

Nick Castiglia (43:15.662)
Okay. Okay. Go ahead.

Milena Hrebacka (43:27.422)
Hahaha!

Milena Hrebacka (43:37.79)
Yeah, they all belong to my clients. They all belong to my clients and they had to hear it from me. But they also know though, like you kind of know when your logo is bad. But here are some things, if I could, sorry Sam, I'm kind of into things to look for or to kind of check off a list if you know it's time for a logo refresh. I actually did a YouTube video on this, but

Sam (43:46.232)
Okay.

Sam (43:56.568)
Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (44:02.526)
Essentially, there are 10 things you can look for. And I don't remember all of them off the top of my head, but just as a quick recap, if it's just frustrating to work with, first of all, if you want to move into like doing a vinyl wrap on your truck of your gym, and you don't have the right files to do that, then you just didn't have a professional logo done in the first place, or else you would have an organized folder of the right files for everything. So we provide all of our clients with.

Sam (44:21.304)
Mm.

Milena Hrebacka (44:31.39)
the JPEGs, the PNGs with transparent backgrounds, the EPS vectors, everything that they would possibly need to perform in any aspect of media and advertising and print and web. So if you are missing an essential file type, that means it wasn't a professional design. You should probably seek someone out, even if not to redesign your logo, to re -export them in the proper format.

So that's one thing to look for. If you have one little JPEG that's 148 kilobytes and that's all you have of your logo, it's time for a new logo to sign. I come across that a lot. Also, if you don't identify with your brand, if you're embarrassed of your brand, you need to seek out a professional and you need to talk to them like you were sitting in a living room with a friend and telling them about yourself.

Because that's what a lot of our consultation calls actually sound like is I get to know the person that's running the business because ultimately they have to stand up and be like, that's me. That's my business. That's my gym. That's what I'm building. That's where I work. And for boss, I wouldn't design anything that I myself wouldn't wear proudly. And if you can't put your shirt on with your gym logo on it and proudly go to a fight night and say, yeah, this is my gym.

then we need to look at a redesign just for your own mental health, right? You want to be proud of what you do and your logo should be something that you want to put on the bat signal and you want to like show it to the whole world. So if that amount of pride is waning or missing, then yeah, it's time to reconsider what maybe has changed. So if you're just not the same person you were when you opened the business or if your business has changed in substantial ways, say for instance,

Sam (45:58.488)
Yep.

Milena Hrebacka (46:21.502)
Boss Tai Boxing might go on in the future to start offering other martial arts programs. We might start to offer Jiu Jitsu or maybe MMA or something else. We may need to reconsider that we're no longer strictly a multi -gym anymore. Yeah, those are the three big things off the top of my head. I mean, really it's a gut check. It's a gut check. If you are looking at your competitors and they make you jealous, that's a problem. You should be making your competitors jealous.

Nick Castiglia (46:33.646)
Thanks for watching!

Sam (46:47.704)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (46:50.846)
They should be like trying to figure out what you're doing and who you're working with.

Nick Castiglia (46:55.022)
Time to level up.

Milena Hrebacka (46:56.478)
That's right. Yeah, you got to play the game. I mean, your competitors are reinvesting in their business. They are. They are seeking professional branding and design. You don't want to be known as the gym that puts up a crappy social media graphic every time they run a promo that was made on Fiverr. Because your clientele feels that they know that they're that you're not reinvesting in them.

Sam (46:56.824)
Yeah.

Sam (47:20.504)
Yep.

Nick Castiglia (47:22.19)
Okay, okay, last, this is my last question. And I know you've touched on like different things, but I always like to put it into like top three, best three, worst three, don't do this, top three don't do, okay? And you know, the top three and the top three things like you should do and the top three mistakes don't always necessarily mirror each other. Like a lot of people, you know, sometimes say to me, cause I explain to people.

doing before the podcast for like, wow, you know, the top three mistakes is just like, don't do the opposite of the top three wins. And it's like, no, that's not how it is. What are the top three mistakes, whether you want to say mistakes or you want to say, here's your top three don'ts of branding for your martial arts school. What would, what would those things be?

Milena Hrebacka (48:01.086)
No.

Milena Hrebacka (48:16.19)
of big do nots. Don't do it yourself if you're not a designer.

Nick Castiglia (48:17.774)
Yeah, do not.

Sam (48:21.336)
Hahaha!

Nick Castiglia (48:22.222)
Do it yourself. There we go. Taking my little buddy. No.

Milena Hrebacka (48:24.638)
Do not DIY. This is not one of those things that you can just, okay, I'm taking off my instructor hat and I'm putting on my designer hat for the afternoon and I'm gonna put three hours into my design work now. Do not do that.

Nick Castiglia (48:38.67)
I think we say in legacy, like I say this to people all the time, like, would you go to a part -time dentist or somebody who's a practicing dentist? You know, like, no, you wouldn't. So.

Milena Hrebacka (48:48.83)
No, I mean there's a lot more at stake in that situation, but I also have a business coach whose catchphrase is don't do stuff you suck at. Because there's somebody else that does it really, really good and it doesn't matter what you pay them, it's going to make you more money. Yeah, it literally does not matter. I mean, obviously there's a breaking point, but I mean, I wouldn't pay $1 ,000 a month to train Muay Thai, but when it comes to design work,

Nick Castiglia (49:05.23)
100%.

Milena Hrebacka (49:18.046)
It's very easy to get sucked into the fear of delegation as a business owner. And that's also one of our strengths is we're the type of personality that likes to take on everything ourselves. And I'm speaking from experience. I know you both feel the same way. My husband's the same. We constantly have to exercise our boundaries, but it's really important for this one that if you want to keep enjoying running your business.

Sam (49:31.384)
Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (49:47.966)
that you do not try to do everything. Otherwise, I hate it really soon.

Sam (49:50.168)
Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (49:50.606)
Okay, so no, if you're not a graphic designer, don't start to try and be one just because you own a martial arts school now, that's number one. What's number two?

Milena Hrebacka (49:56.446)
Wow. That's right. That's right.

Number two, I would say don't balk at price points. Just keep in mind that, again, I think this is a really simple and easily applicable rule, is invest proportionally in the longevity of the item you're designing. So if this is your brand we're talking about, invest appropriately. Invest the time. And also, I don't design a logo overnight. It takes weeks. It takes between two to four weeks.

Sam (50:06.712)
Mm.

Milena Hrebacka (50:30.782)
to design a logo and perform revisions to it, make sure it's perfect for the client, make sure that they're madly in love with it. And then create all the different spin -off variations of that logo so that it serves them in every function of their business. But that's expensive. And a lot of clientele I get on the console call with, they have no idea what it costs. And so they get sticker shock.

Sam (51:00.28)
Mmm.

Milena Hrebacka (51:00.35)
And that's because they've never worked with a professional before, or if they have, they were, I don't want to say rookie, but maybe they were underselling themselves or they were an amateur or a non -professional. But professional rates seem high until it starts paying you back in dividends.

Nick Castiglia (51:18.414)
Yeah, like I think they just don't understand the true level of the value. Like for instance, okay, you know, some gyms in legacy or many gyms make over half a million dollars a year. So if I'm like, this is the half a million dollar packaging for $2 ,000. It's like, you know, like, okay, you know, like, you know, half a million dollars a year.

Milena Hrebacka (51:39.582)
Yeah.

Exactly. Thank you for putting it in, but you're right. Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (51:48.206)
You know, and then it's like, good, you know, 2000, $3 ,000 one time. It's a pretty good deal, you know, like to keep that good energy and vibe and selling the merchandise, selling the brand, selling the business, people signing up, people feeling good about being in your place, you know.

Milena Hrebacka (51:56.35)
Yeah.

Milena Hrebacka (52:05.438)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (52:10.382)
Okay. So number two, don't balk at the price points. And I can completely sympathize with that. Even just with like legacy and consulting and stuff. It's like the amount of money that people would make in return. It's like, it's like night and day. So I'm, I'm right with you. So if you're not a graphic designer, don't try and be one number one, don't balk at the price points. Understand the true value of what you're getting. And the, the last,

of the top three mistakes.

Milena Hrebacka (52:40.83)
It's a good one. I'm really fired up about this. We talked about it a lot, but to put it succinctly, like don't break what's working for you. And if a professional set you up with a gorgeous brand that you fell in love with, with a style guide that works, that enables continuity, don't stray from that path. Don't try and make up something new six months later. If it's working, let it work. I know that people can get antsy.

Sam (52:48.952)
Mm.

Milena Hrebacka (53:10.462)
and they can get bored and they can start to play. A lot of my gym owner clients are also very creative people and they want to design things, but they're also not even paying attention to their own brand. So if you do work with another designer apart from the one that originally designed your logo, that's totally fine. You don't have to stay with the same designer for the life of your business, but for the love of God, please give them your brand style guide and make sure that...

Sam (53:22.296)
Mm -hmm.

Milena Hrebacka (53:38.014)
everything going forward is married and consistent and is selling the same product. Consistency is key, so don't break the consistency.

Nick Castiglia (53:48.526)
Okay, Malena, people wanna find you, new breed, the awesomeness that you create and bring into the universe from people's minds. How do they connect with you?

Milena Hrebacka (54:00.35)
Yeah, send me an email or go to my website. It's newbreed .design and then you can send me an email from there or my first name, -I -L -E -N -A, at newbreed .design is the best way to get in touch with me and we can talk and figure out where your business is lacking. If you're not meeting your metrics, if you're not meeting your goals, we can figure that out. That's what brand strategy is all about.

Nick Castiglia (54:26.062)
Also featured speaker at the Business Summit coming up in July because you are our branding guru. Guys, if you're listening to this podcast and you want to meet her in person and see the amazing presentation that she's going to be doing in July and see her, she can be in the Toronto area, Legacy Business Summit. Me, Sam, Malena are going to be there.

Milena Hrebacka (54:28.83)
Mm -hmm.

Milena Hrebacka (54:36.926)
Hehehehe

Nick Castiglia (54:56.014)
dropping some mad knowledge for the gym owners to help you guys to the next level. So that is also another place that you can come and meet the legend, Malena in person.

Milena Hrebacka (55:00.894)
Thank you.

Milena Hrebacka (55:09.758)
Thank you so much. I'm super excited for that, by the way. I'll come with lots of visuals. It'll be a really fun presentation. I'm excited. Yeah. Yay.

Sam (55:15.928)
Amazing. We can't wait. In order to register, you can follow us on Instagram, legacyMAConsulting. And we have a link tree and registrations in our bio. Also join our free Facebook group at martialartsshimownersunited .com. And obviously keep following, listening to our podcast. We're going to have lots of amazing guests. Maybe not as amazing as Melina, but.

Many more amazing guests. So keep listening and we'll see everyone soon.