The Legacy Martial Arts Business Podcast

Nick Castiglia (00:01.437)
What's up guys, Nick Castiglia here from the Legacy Martial Arts Business Podcast. I am here with one of my great friends, Steven Pule, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt, owner and creator of the Submission Academy. Welcome to the podcast, Steve, how you doing today?

Steve Poulin (00:25.294)
Doing awesome, thanks for having me.

Nick Castiglia (00:28.253)
Great, so let's get right into it. The first question where we start off with every one of our podcasts is, how did the Submission Academy start? It's like the how's and where did the Submission Academy start and what got it going and the transformation of it. Fill us in, tell us a story.

Steve Poulin (00:52.27)
Okay. Well, we're going back about 15 years at this point. Um, I trained at another gym, uh, had a pretty good group of, uh, training partners, but it wasn't really necessarily on, like I had a different training philosophy, I'll say, than, uh, the owner of the gym. So over time, this kind of the idea that maybe it was, uh, getting to the point where I should one day open my own gym started to present itself and.

Then I had a former training partner just approach me on the street, basically saying that he really enjoyed training with me. And if I were to open my own gym, he would be my first student kind of thing. So I was like, okay, cool. And then a few hours later, the same day he called me and was just like, would you do private lessons with me? And I had mats at my house and it was summertime. So, uh,

Nick Castiglia (01:24.317)
you

Steve Poulin (01:46.35)
just set up mats up in the backyard actually and started doing private lessons with this one guy and then he invited me to train at a friend's house just kind of roll and hang out and there was a few of them and that led to fairly consistent training and a guy I worked with at a karate school so I asked him if it would be possible to sublet just a few days a week as we had grown out of the basement.

and he agreed and after subletting there for about two months, we moved into my current location now and we've been there for about 13 years.

Nick Castiglia (02:28.317)
So that's how it started, you know, it started as an idea, then, you know, like, what push you, was it the guy, was it the guy who just said like, hey, man, like, you should really open up your own school. And you're just like, I'm gonna do that. Like, was that the beginning of the push or are you already thinking kind of these things?

Steve Poulin (02:43.95)
Well, like I had had a couple people say to me like that I seem to be, you know, like a natural fit for being instructor anyway. And like even in my Japanese, like I started doing Japanese jujitsu first up in North Bay, you know, 25 years ago or whatever. And, um,

Like I quickly became kind of the helper, the co -instructor, the, you know, whatever. And so it kind of seemed natural, which is odd. It's not natural to my personality by any means to be in the front of the room, talking to large groups of people or whatever, but that came over time. Luckily I didn't have a bunch of students at the start anyway, so it wasn't a big issue, but yeah, it was, I knew based on the training methodology of the gym I trained at,

That it wasn't necessarily for me. Like I just had, like there was nothing wrong with it. I could totally understand the business model. Uh, I had a good relationship with my instructor and everything. Like it wasn't really like contentious. Like I wasn't necessarily leaving like, uh, in a negative way. I just felt the day had come kind of thing. And, um, yeah, it was just, it was more or less like a difference in philosophies more than a, uh, you know,

some big, I don't have a great story to tell to be honest. There was no major comment or anything. It was just kind of like the writings on the wall that like, this is not the spot for me. So.

Nick Castiglia (04:11.165)
You know that.

Nick Castiglia (04:19.805)
No, I think that's perfect. So you go out, you start subletting from this karate school or a man or a friend that is running a karate program. And this is in London, Ontario, correct? This is where we started. Okay.

Steve Poulin (04:36.814)
Yeah, I started in North Bay doing Japanese Jiu -Jitsu. I moved to London, started training Brazilian Jiu -Jitsu, and then after a few years, that led to the submission to KED.

Nick Castiglia (04:49.597)
Awesome. So was it always called the submission Academy from the beginning?

Steve Poulin (04:53.71)
Yep. Yep. The one we were just looking for names and I was like trying to find things based on kind of my own philosophies, you know, and I'm kind of a, you know, go for the kill kind of thing as our main still is today. The main kind of ideology behind our training. So it seemed like, uh, yeah, it was one. I think I had like a list of three and that one just stood out. I'm like, yeah, man, that's doesn't get much more obvious than.

than that kind of thing, so.

Nick Castiglia (05:26.429)
So you start your academy.

like what happens next? Like, I'm sure there is like a ton of learning, you know, were you working at the same time? Because a lot of people who start their gyms at the beginning, you know, they know a lot about martial arts, don't really know a lot about running a gym. You know, I take it at that time, you're kind of the same. And, you know, and we're, you know, I know the answer to these questions, because it's unfair, I'm like a good friend of yours, but like,

You know, were you working at the same time as well?

Steve Poulin (06:04.27)
Yeah, I worked at the post office. My wife worked as a nurse. Uh, that was really, uh, yeah, like the gym wasn't a business idea. Really. It was just like, I'm just going to train. Like, to be honest, we were the worst business people because we would have like three hour classes, you know, warm up might be, uh, you know, guard pass drilling for 45 minutes. Like it was certainly not the, uh,

Nick Castiglia (06:20.829)
Thank you.

Steve Poulin (06:33.646)
the way you kind of try to build a business nowadays. It built a good solid group, I will say that. But from a business point of view, it was fairly suicidal. We tried to make you quit and if you didn't, then you stayed. Kind of thing, but we didn't, like there was no like, oh, we have a new person here. Let's try to make it easy and accommodating so that we're almost the opposite. We're just like, let's show them how hard it is. And if they stick around, then there are kind of people kind of thing. So.

It took a while. It was many years before I think I started like a fundamental program and really, uh, yeah, cause I wasn't like, I had a job, my wife, Jane had a job. We weren't really looking at this as a business venture. It was just like, how do I want to train? I was still competitive at the time and I felt like I wasn't, I wasn't getting the right training for that. A lot of third place metals and things are gassing out three or four rounds in where I'm like, clearly I'm not.

This isn't the way. And, uh, so I, I pretty much like that was it. I was just, you know, let's up the intensity level. Let's make it as much about, you know, the fitness components as everything else. And then we did build this good group and then over time, it kind of turned into a business when we got to the point where our student count and the money coming in kind of had us thinking like, well, if we took this seriously, um, you know, if we put the focus on,

on this, like it could be a business. And we happened to go to a, just like a business summit, you know, like, um, with you many years ago, 10 years ago, I guess, holy crap. And, uh, just hearing some of the people in the room, the numbers they were putting out, I thought I was doing, I think I had like 60 students. I was like, man, we're crushing it. And because so many of our students, um, trained at the same time, our classes were huge. So, you know, if you have,

30 people in class, you just assume like, man, how much better could I do? I don't really have room for people. But when I started hearing the numbers from some of these successful gym owners, I was like, OK, clearly, if we if we. Make our emphasis the business side of things for a while, we could do this as an actual business and not as a hobby. And that's when we well, that's why I signed up with you pretty much.

Nick Castiglia (09:00.861)
Yeah, so okay so like

You know, you're there, you have the 60 students. Let's talk about like even just the just what made what made you say in your mind, you know what, I'm going to go to the I'm going to go to this this business summit. Like, like, were you already thinking that? Were you already thinking at that time? You're like, you know what, like, I need to do something to take the business to the next level. And then like, you know, this kind of fell into your lap. You're like, oh, man, I'm

You know what, I'm gonna do this.

Steve Poulin (09:36.686)
It was exactly that. I had no clue. I knew that. I went to school to be a recording engineer, working in a studio. I was a musician. I didn't really have any business sense. So it was really, we had been talking about, well, what could we do? My wife and I were just...

We seem to hit this threshold where lose a few, get a few, but we weren't really breaking. There was a, there was a ceiling, the clear visible, like this is our, this is what we're doing. You know, this is our capabilities kind of thing. And then, um, and then actually you called me for completely unrelated reason. And, uh,

Yeah, and then a few months later you guys were organizing the first kind of weekend summit and you sent me an email I think just being like, hey, would you guys be interested in this? And my wife and I were like, I really feel like this is kind of serendipitous. Like we should definitely go. So we went and in the first day I think there was like a, like a discount offered if you signed up for the year. You know, so it was like, if you pay now,

And I was like, that's a lot of money, but we did lunch break day one. We're just like, here's the credit card. You know, let's do it. And, uh, I mean, clearly it was a good decision, but.

Nick Castiglia (11:05.821)
So, okay, so like, and you know, and like I said, you know, even before this, you know, I'm trying not to make these podcasts just like the legacy martial arts consulting or the Nick Stiglia like hype reel. So like, you know, we begin working together. What are your initial thoughts? Because like, and I know I was like this in my own history.

When I began learning martial arts business, I had a difficult time. I was kind of like your regular, like you'd think, martial artist and young man. So I was a young man and I was an egotistical, big head and, oh, we don't need to do this and we don't need to do that, or we can't do that. Everybody's going to leave. What were your thoughts as you started working?

working on your business, like what was your mindset? What were the thoughts going through your mind as you started to change your business?

Steve Poulin (12:16.174)
I think a lot of it was just like excitement because you don't know what you don't know. And when you don't know, there's a lot you don't know. And so just through the first kind of couple conversations, the excitement was automatic, right? Cause it's like, you could do this. Like, man, I never would have thought of that. Like what could you do to get your student count up? It's like, you could do this. We're just like, duh. You know, a lot of business I find to be,

similar to, you know, jujitsu is like, it's obvious once it's obvious. But when you don't know, right? Like you could see like, as you get through the ranks in jujitsu, you're, you know, something as obvious as the first couple of times you shoot a double and get your head pulled off. You're like, okay, like, don't do that. But it takes a few. And so a lot of it was simply like, there was just an excitement to the fact that as these, as we started implementing,

just these kind of what are now this obvious basic, you know, business standards that I knew that we were gonna explode. Because I felt like in many ways we were on the right track, like in terms of the Jiu -Jitsu. So I thought like if what we're selling is sound, is good, is, you know, then it should be...

easy enough to be successful. So it's just how do we take this, what we feel to be, you know, a great product and get it to more people really. And, uh, and that was really, yeah. So it was, it was all just excitement. It was, you know, as we started implementing things like pretty much right out of the gate, everything worked. So it became, uh, you know, like the, I think it was like,

going way back then, I think it's like three grand or something, four grand up front, I can't remember exactly, but the first thing we did made that money back like 10 times almost. So like, okay, well, if they never tell us another good thing, they've already paid for themselves kind of thing. So honestly, like the first two, we did two major things that total probably.

Nick Castiglia (14:33.149)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (14:44.43)
between 50 and 60 grand. And so you're like, okay, well, I made 60 grand last year, and then I just made it last weekend kind of thing. So it obviously, you know, it will just be new, like, okay, let's just do whatever they say.

Nick Castiglia (14:49.469)
Okay, so, you know, we started working together, but again, you're still sharing with the karate guy, like how, how long after, you know, working on your business, do you end up telling?

you know, the guy who's teaching karate in there, like, listen, buddy, we just can't, you know, we're, we're taking over here.

Steve Poulin (15:23.502)
Yeah, I think it took about a year. It was more just, you know, one of us will probably have to leave. It was like, I don't mind being the one, but just from a scheduling point of view, we needed to add more days. So we added date classes, like around his schedule first. So we'd have like, you know, the 8pm class, because they were usually done by 7 .30 or whatever. And then it just got to the point where it seems like.

We need our own space. So either we're moving or you are. And he's a great, like awesome guy, still a friend of mine today. So he just moved down the street a bit and you know, his business did continue to do well. He closed, he recently retired from that, but yeah, it was just, you know, writing on the wall kind of thing. It's like, we knew when the conversation came to be, it was kind of like, neither one of us were surprised.

Nick Castiglia (16:15.773)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (16:22.766)
is that we're at that point where it's like, okay, one of us has got to go.

Nick Castiglia (16:24.733)
Yeah, that's it. That's awesome. And then, you know, so we fought, you know, we fast forward a bit. And it's like a couple years later. Several hundred students later, you know, like what like, what's happening after that? Like you went from you went from teaching in your garage garage was it?

Steve Poulin (16:51.854)
Yeah, right in the backyard even. Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (16:55.325)
Yeah, garage backyard, old school style. And you're sharing the gym with a with your friend, you know, who teaches karate. And then, you know, you're probably what hit like probably doubled your student base, like, hit up to like 120 students or something like that and needed to add a more proper schedule. Is that does that sound like about right? Like everything there?

Steve Poulin (17:19.022)
Yeah, that was really it. Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (17:21.917)
You know, and then, you know, he moves and then like, what's next? Like, what else are we, what else are you doing that like, because like, it's one thing to, okay, say, hey, we need the space, we need more space, but there's still like another, but you still made another massive leap from like there until where you are now. So like, what came next after that?

Steve Poulin (17:44.366)
Probably the Muay Thai program came next, which I don't, I no longer do, but I, uh, we had that for about six years, I think. I started training with crew Chris and bringing his guys in and I would go there. And I think, um, adding the art at the time, I think was quite helpful. I feel pretty comfortable being like in my current business model. I like, I'm just, I try to be the best at one thing kind of, you know, so.

That's why we really decided to just double down and just be a straight jujitsu school. But I think...

Nick Castiglia (18:20.989)
And then you became more successful. Then you became more successful after just doubling down, you know?

Steve Poulin (18:23.79)
Yeah. Yeah, funny. Taking our way actually made us more successful financially and yeah, it's and physically, I mean, I love Muay Thai, but it was taking its toll being the head instructor of two, three programs, four programs, technically, I guess, if you go kids and adults Muay Thai and then kids and adults jujitsu and then we had a Nogi program as well. So it was getting.

It was getting tiring. You know, I'm closer to 50 than 40. So start to decide, you know, like, like I've said many times, you know, you have to decide what success is to you. And I quickly realized with two kids and two young kids, I have a 10 year old and a six year old that I want to be able to, you know, still be physically capable of doing things 10 years from now. So it was kind of like,

Nick Castiglia (19:07.197)
Mm -hmm.

Steve Poulin (19:21.902)
You know, a lot of things factored into the decision, but obviously, um, having all the mandates, uh, come through and ransack everyone's business was mostly negative, but it also allowed time for introspection and kind of a recalibration of what I thought, like, um, what success meant to me. So success meant more time. I taught seven days a week for 10 years. I taught Muay Thai, Jiu -Jitsu. I taught yoga on Sundays.

Like I did a 200 hour RYT yoga certification course so I could teach yoga at my gym too. Teaching conditioning classes and I actually loved that lifestyle at the time before the kids came. Being at the gym all the time. I also had a skewed perspective of what success was. To me I was successful because I'm the busiest guy I know. You know and it...

Nick Castiglia (19:52.125)
Thank you.

Nick Castiglia (20:07.901)
Mm -hmm.

Steve Poulin (20:20.526)
Obviously when you have children and then you're taking time away from them you realize that is not You know for me personally I mean for those out there working 80 hours a week and seeing your kids once a month if that's works for you by all means But it did not work for me. So a lot of my decision -making Became that like sit down with my wife and say let's define success to us you know, we like we want to be able to afford things and do things but I

And I want to be able to provide for my children, you know, all the things that, uh, you know, you would hope to provide for them. But what the main thing was time, you know, if you ask, uh, you know, if you ask someone who lost their father or mother early on in their life, you know, if they got a sizable amount from that death, would you rather your dad back or his money? No one's, I mean, barring some horrific relationship is choosing the money, you know, so.

Nick Castiglia (21:15.997)
Yeah, yeah, and you know, I'm so I'm so happy you touched on that because like we talked about that a lot, you know, and I think, you know, when people think about having a successful martial arts school, at first, they think it's all about the money. It's all about the money, how many students I have, how big my location is, you know, these things and.

Steve Poulin (21:35.278)
Yes.

Nick Castiglia (21:43.485)
You know you and i personally talk about this a lot too and it's like man it is you know yeah you do need money absolutely you absolutely need money okay does money help you do a lot of things get a lot of things have a lot of opportunities absolutely however not at the cost of yourself or at the cost of your family.

and the people you like love and hold most dear, you know? Like it cannot, cannot be, that cannot be the exchange of that, you know?

Steve Poulin (22:18.83)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. There was this moment as well, like I was getting run down to like, you can only eat so much like I lost probably 15 pounds just teaching day class teaching in the evening, teaching on the weekends, you only need to skip a couple of meals when you're burning 5000 calories a day. And I didn't really notice right, I go visit my family or see friends that I haven't seen a long time and they're asking about my health, you know, I'm like, what do you mean?

Nick Castiglia (22:22.333)
And it's it.

Nick Castiglia (22:41.181)
Thank you.

Steve Poulin (22:48.238)
Because you just run down, you look like shit. But you look like a bouncer, you look like, but you don't really see those changes when you see yourself every day kind of thing.

Nick Castiglia (22:51.613)
Yeah, yeah.

Thank you.

I have another question about, you know, to kind of touch on for everyone because, you know, you worked at Canada Post, pretty good job. And your wife was a nurse, also very good. Like these are good jobs. These are good jobs. So, you know, I think, I think the thing that's like a real value for people to hear is like, can you think back right to that time?

Steve Poulin (23:04.686)
Mm -hmm.

Steve Poulin (23:17.166)
Mm -hmm.

Nick Castiglia (23:31.709)
when you had to, when you're like, I'm not doing this anymore, or when you're talking to your wife about her not doing her job anymore. And like take us through kind of like the emotions, the questions, the uncertainty, you know, the, you know, we call it like burning the boat, burning the boat, there's no turning back now. Like, can you take us through that time for both of you guys?

Steve Poulin (23:50.222)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (23:56.622)
It was a weird thing. Like all these things happen. That's why I'm always hesitant to, uh, to like judge a situation from its surface. You know, like when something happens, you're like, this is terrible. It's like, is it, you know, sometimes time would, um, disagree with you. So I worked at the post office and we were about to have a major, um, routing, like it was going to be like, you know,

major rerouting, all that, like the job is going to change pretty big time. And, um, I wasn't really looking forward to it to be honest, but I was boxing. We didn't have a boxing program yet. The Friday, there was a few of us that like, I originally started learning Muay Thai and kickboxing from my brother -in -law as a teenager is really where my interest in martial arts started. So I always loved it. So we would box and kickbox on Friday nights and, um,

one of my jujitsu students actually and I were kickboxing and he kept lunging in and he was stepping on my foot. I'm like, well, this is annoying. So I switched stances and he lunges in, hits my foot and breaks the bone behind my little toe. I didn't really notice at the time we trained for a few more hours. I knew my foot was sore or whatever, but Sunday night I stayed with my wife because like you walk about, you know, 10 to 15.

as a mailman depending on your route or whatever and I'm like oh man I'm said tomorrow is gonna be a gut check because my foot is still very sore and you know she's a was a nurse so she looks at it I didn't realize the bottom was all black she's like his foot is broken man you can't go walk 15 kilometers on a broken foot so I called in and like yeah I'm gonna have to take like probably the week off or whatever and

After a week, my wife's like, you know, you should never go back there because the difference in your personality a week later, like I was starting to let things get to me. I loved the job for many years. And then it just kind of like, I mean, I could really pinpoint it to like two people, but, uh, this is real negative kind of cloud came over and it just wasn't for me anymore. I'm like, it was, everyone was, it was just negative. Right? So, um,

Steve Poulin (26:20.814)
I guess I didn't really notice it consuming me, but my wife noticed when it wasn't. She's like, I don't think you should go back there. And I was like, you know, I think if I spent the time that I dedicate to the job, to business, to learning how to run a business, then I could make up the money. And the gym at the time was starting to hit that point of making pretty much.

what I made at the post office. So, and in terms of like the feeling, I've always had this, I don't even want to call it confidence because like I didn't think of it that way. I didn't really think of the consequence at all. It wasn't until I told my parents or my mom that I was gonna quit that job. She's just like, that's stupid. Like pension, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, nah, I think I'll be good.

said I don't really want to work something I don't enjoy for this like, you know, oh, 30 years from now, we'll give you this. I'm like, but what about those 30 years? You know, it just didn't make sense. So to me, there was no fear, hesitation or anything. Like I was just, I took a leave of absence. They allowed that. You could take a year leave of absence. So I did that, but I knew I was never.

And the year spent just focusing on the business made it so it was not an issue. I was making, the gym ended up, after that year, making way more than, I was like taking home way more than I was from the post office anyway. So I just started thinking in terms of investments, like, okay, if I'm not gonna have the pension that I was to rely on, then what will I do instead?

So just started kinda trying to educate myself on things to do with your money if you don't have a pension, things like that. And it's pretty much where that came to be. And then for Jane's job, she was pregnant with my second child, my son Kelly. And yeah, she took off work.

Steve Poulin (28:45.646)
Probably I can't remember how deep she was into her pregnancy and I just was like you never going back There's no reason there's no need to Same kind of idea. She was running. She was the boss where she worked and and the money was good, but It sucked right so it's just again one of those things where you say do I value Money more than happiness and hopefully the answer is no so

That was a pretty easy conversation too. She never went back. She's my son's six, so it's been seven years since she had a job and probably 10 years since I've had a job.

Nick Castiglia (29:25.341)
And I think it's important for people to hear like, you guys aren't just making it by, you know, like you guys are doing well, you're doing great. And that's a whole family on one school. And that's, you know, I think people got to take a little bit more gamble on themselves and what they want from their life and believe in themselves, you know, to.

Steve Poulin (29:47.566)
I think it's that. I don't gamble at all. That's the funny thing, right? I was like, I felt like, like I feel I'm good at this. I feel I'm, I mean, the main thing is this. What gives us the confidence gives me the, has always given me the confidence is like, I'm trying as hard as I can. You know what I mean? Like, and I feel like that's the, that's the secret. You know, like I am.

in all facets. Like we've talked about this a million times. It's like the books we read, the things we do, you're trying to be a better person. You're trying to be a better instructor. You're trying to be a better business owner. All these things, right? Like create a culture that makes a sustainable business. I hesitate to even call it a business. Like I almost feel like, uh,

Like it's disrespectful to my students referring to it as such. I know this is a business podcast, but it's just, there's so more to it, you know?

Nick Castiglia (30:48.445)
For sure. Next question I have, thanks. These are like amazing answers that I think so many people can connect to. What was the biggest challenge you think, you know, it can be personally, it can be the business -wise, what was the biggest challenge you think you've had to overcome in, you know, taking the gym to the next level, like in your opinion?

Steve Poulin (31:16.718)
Man, probably, you know, everyone has that. I think a lot of instructors, especially you have that kind of imposter syndrome, you know, like to some degree. Most I mean, I know some guys are just like everyone should train with me. I'm the best in the world, but I feel like, you know, there are definitely those guys and God bless you, but I was not one of them either. You know, I just.

you kind of get early on it's like why would someone train with me like why would you choose me or whatever like why would you do that so I think probably that was the only real like obstacle that I can uh and I mean I still struggle with that just to some degree today as I'm sure many people do you know like

Nick Castiglia (32:12.029)
I do, I do. I for sure struggle with that. Teaching at another gym last night and you're like the big deal and you're like, I'm not a big deal, you know, I'm just here showing you some moves, you know, like I get it, I hear you.

Steve Poulin (32:28.046)
Yeah, I definitely feel that way when I go teach other gyms as well and you're getting the rock star treatment or whatever. I'm like, this is an elevator in and out house kind of situation here. Just, you can call me Steve, like all the professors shit and everything. I've always had a hard time.

Nick Castiglia (32:37.469)
Yeah.

Nick Castiglia (32:48.989)
Okay, so, you know, and I asked this question every podcast that I do, and the answers are always, you know, amazing and super unique to the person. What are three things you would tell your younger self or somebody else who was the you?

Steve Poulin (33:04.366)
No pressure.

Nick Castiglia (33:15.421)
just starting out, maybe having a hard time making it by, maybe they're the one that's sharing the space in, you know, with the karate school. What are three things you would tell your younger self or another gym owner who is at that stage where you were when you started?

Steve Poulin (33:33.422)
probably say one of the first things is decide what success means to you. Because I can tell you all these things. Like you might run three months of summer camp, do March break camps, do like all these things, teach every class, you know, be at your gym seven days a week and feel fulfilled and like your life is great. I would say that's successful. But, um, you know, if every

Nick Castiglia (33:53.213)
Thank you.

Steve Poulin (34:02.958)
night you're like man what what the hell am I doing like even though the money's there that is to me not successful so having a defined at least kind of parameter of your idea of success because I think most people think in terms of student count or money but like for me the culture of my gym is what makes me feel successful you know.

not how many students I have. I could have way more students. I could do way more. I could make way more money. I know I leave a lot of money on the table by choice, you know, like 100 % by choice. So I would tell you to build the bench.

Sustainability is a thing that a lot of us struggle with because by the time you start building the bench, it's either because your business has grown to the point where you need it now or physically you're starting to deal with issues that like, you know, I can't necessarily physically do this every day. And then now you might be choosing someone based on, you know, like I need someone now and.

that isn't exactly the best. You want to nurture these people up. You can't recreate yourself and you really shouldn't even try. But you certainly, my biggest fear is always when it came to bringing in other instructors is these people are here for me. They deserve for me to be there.

Nick Castiglia (35:23.229)
you

Steve Poulin (35:42.446)
Right, but there's a diminishing return to be the person teaching twice a day for seven days a week. You're not as good as that other person at a certain point because you're jacked, you're sore, you're in a bad mood, you're just burnt out. And...

A lot of us, I think, make that mistake. So getting, you know, a few people early on, like Yusuf is one of my guys. He's been with me since he's probably one of my first 10 students. He was a teenager. He's now a black belt under me and, and his adult, but he runs my fun. He runs my G program pretty much. I only recently started teaching G classes again. Um,

But I knew early on, funny enough, I thought he'd be my kids instructor. I had him teach one kids class and I was like, Yusef does not have the patience for this. But he's such a sweet guy, buddy. Just when it came to the kids program, I knew he wasn't my guy. But when he got a little older, he became the fundamentals instructor and he's been just a blessing. He has a different approach than me in some ways, but all of his Jiu -Jitsu comes from me. So I know that.

I can count on him, right? Like I can count on him. I think of him as somehow my son and brother at the same time kind of thing. But nurturing these relationships early, making sure you're not the only one. And from a leadership point of view, learn to create other leaders. You don't want to be this and everyone's under you. It's not a sustainable business model. You need to have your...

ego kind of in check to say like people are going to look up to this guy too and this girl and this you know and you're not going to be the one and that ends up actually being a very very beneficial to business right if you are if your entire business is completely reliant on you to to at least to my idea of of success you can't be successful you know like

Steve Poulin (37:52.174)
If every class you're not there, you feel is taking away from your business. Like I would look at, like use a restaurant for an example, you know, like unless you're in, you know, Paris or something, you're probably, you know, Gordon Ramsay's not in the kitchen when you're at Gordon Ramsay's restaurant, you know, it's like, but is Ramsay's standard? Yes. You know, it's like, so you need to create these.

Nick Castiglia (38:10.781)
Peace.

Steve Poulin (38:20.334)
relationships early on if you can and nurture them as leaders to put them in that role when they you know rise to the occasion they're already ready or right or when you need that person you're choosing someone based on their skill set and their ability to do the job not because you need someone right now you know like because i've made that mistake too just like oh shit i need a

Nick Castiglia (38:44.893)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (38:48.59)
you know, and then you put someone in place and they don't represent you in any way. They're not a good fit and you're you know.

Nick Castiglia (38:51.293)
Thank you.

Nick Castiglia (38:56.605)
You end up paying and you're going to pay. You're going to pay for that later or at some point, whether you can see it or not at the time, you know.

Steve Poulin (39:01.55)
Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And then, so I would say like, yeah, build the bench. Um, learn to track your metrics, man. Like you can't, I can't stress enough that, uh, like, you know, what gets measured gets weighed. If you don't know what's going on in your business, you, you have a hobby school and there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're looking to make, because for me, it's not about the money.

Success allows you to do, like I can bring in seminars, lose thousands of dollars to have this major person come, but it's not a loss in any way. You know, cause I can, the gym can afford it. It brings up the level, right? I've had major, major seminars, I've had to charge my students for.

Nick Castiglia (39:48.413)
Name names, name names Steve, because you brought some of the biggest in the game.

Steve Poulin (39:53.71)
Uh, people I've had in my gym. Oh man. Probably the, I don't know. Tom de Blas would be a big name, I guess, for a lot of people. I've had Oliver Tasler, I've had Jack Ray, I've had Robert Drysdale many times. Man, the list goes on. We've, we've had a lot of seminars over the years. And, uh, again, it's just that idea of what's the maximum value I can bring. You know, like that's really what it comes down to.

That's, I think that's our, that's, that's the secret of our success is we're constantly like, how can we give more? Like pretty much.

Nick Castiglia (40:31.261)
So, you know, you're big three, you know, you're talking about defining success, you know, and what that is, and that's different for each individual. We're talking about building the bench. You talked about tracking metrics, and it's funny because we need to laugh about that all the time. You know, it's like, if there's one thing that is like the most important, but like definitely the thing that nobody wants to do at the beginning.

Steve Poulin (40:35.758)
Shut up!

Steve Poulin (40:51.662)
obvious.

Nick Castiglia (41:00.925)
it's track their metrics because that's literally the DNA of your school which tells you what's wrong and where to fix it and where we're suffering, where we're bleeding out of, you know.

Steve Poulin (41:12.942)
call it the rudder of the ship. How do you know where you're, how to guide your business? Right? How many, how many kids are in your program? How many adults do you have? How many, you know, like if you don't know where the majority of your money is coming from, where are there, where are you not as efficient as you could be? Like these are just obvious. Probably one of the main things though, I would say to my old self, learn not to take everything personally.

People are gonna leave, people are gonna talk shit about you. The better, funny thing, the better you are, the more that's likely to happen. You know? Like, no one's talking shit about the loser who's not succeeding, because they don't care about you. They're not insecure about you. The shit talk comes from success. So when you start hearing these things, it hurts your feelings, oh, I'm doing the best I can. You are, yeah, and you're doing awesome.

And some people don't like that. Right. So, uh, for me, that's a big one is just like, cause I don't really look at other gyms as competition. I look at, I look at other sports. I don't see like, you know, my, like Hanzo Gracie would say, uh, you know, back in the day, I think it was when Johnny Grippo left or one of the bigger names or whatever. And you know, everyone's waiting. And of course Hanzo's notorious for giving you these, uh, one line, uh,

Oh my God, I can't believe he said that. But he just doesn't give a shit, right? But his response was simply like, hey, people end up where they belong.

And that might not be your gym. And I've lost students over the years many times. And I've gained other people's students, you know, many times over the years. And it's just...

Steve Poulin (43:06.574)
It's just the way it is, you know, like you'd be the sweetest peach, but some people just don't like peaches. What are you going to do? Take it personally. There's too many things to take personally. You know what I mean? It'll just, it becomes.

Nick Castiglia (43:13.757)
That's right. That's right.

Steve Poulin (43:23.982)
You know, you have to get to that point, you know, like no matter what you're working in, success breeds contempt. It's just the way it is. People don't want to work as hard as you. They don't want to put in the work, but they want what you have. And sometimes, you know, incorrectly, people feel that trying to break you down somehow builds them up. So I just don't take any of that personally, you know, largely, I think my students know that I don't hear things often.

Nick Castiglia (43:33.949)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (43:53.902)
You know, I don't know the dramas of the or, or, or, you know, these things, cause I don't really care. You know, people, Oh, did you hear this Jim's doing blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, I didn't. What they're just down the street from you. How do you not know that? I'm like, cause I don't fucking care. That's why, that's why I don't know. Cause I have two children. I'm like, does so -and -so doing that, how does that affect my family? It doesn't? Okay, cool.

Nick Castiglia (44:03.645)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (44:21.774)
How does it affect my students, my friends? It doesn't? What the fuck are we talking about?

Nick Castiglia (44:28.317)
We're good. We're good.

Steve Poulin (44:29.678)
You know, so, cause I think a lot of it is, um, yeah, that's that. So I would say I put that on my list too. Don't take things personally. If you are successful, you will get on for it. 100%. Tell you, no, you made it.

Nick Castiglia (44:44.487)
And that's a band. That one, that last one, I was not expecting that one. That one hits home. That one hits home for me personally too. Because I'm always trying to do my best, always trying to get along with everybody. And then, hey, why'd they leave? And...

you know, what were they upset about? Could I have, I have fixed it. Hey, we can make it better. This, and it's just the truth is I think you said it perfectly. Like give me the sweetest peach, but some people just don't like peaches. So.

Steve Poulin (45:16.366)
I think that tribal nomics work, of course, really helped me with that. I just had take on all the guilt. There was never a negative interaction with someone else that I didn't take full responsibility for. You know, I would just internalize and somehow create an excuse for them why I'm the asshole. Right? Why I, it was me. It was always me. Right? And then,

as we started going through the tribal nomics thing with Justin Garcia, first, what was it called? The loyalty matrix, if you go.

Nick Castiglia (45:51.389)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Poulin (45:53.806)
then it kind of opened my eyes where it's like, it's just compartmentalizing people based on their own behavior. And then you treat them as such, right? These are every relationships and energy exchange. Well, how much energy are you bringing to me? It's not just like, oh, I own the gym. So I give to you like, you know, that's a misunderstanding. A lot of people have I train at your, I pay to be here. I can do whatever the fuck I want. It's like, no, you pay for the privilege.

Nick Castiglia (46:22.173)
That's right. That's right. That's right. Thanks. Those are all amazing points. And I'd definitely say the last one is like, just hits home very hard for me. What's some some of the accomplishments that you're most proud of? You know, I have one accomplishment, but I know you I know it's probably hard for you to pick.

Steve Poulin (46:23.374)
to be part of it.

Nick Castiglia (46:46.013)
just one because I know you have a couple really significant ones, you know, if I think you're forgetting one, I might throw it in there. But like what?

Steve Poulin (46:53.422)
My wife not working.

Nick Castiglia (46:56.733)
what you and your wife are working.

Steve Poulin (46:59.31)
No, my wife not working.

Nick Castiglia (47:01.149)
or your wife not working. Yeah, that's amazing. That's, it's huge. I would...

Steve Poulin (47:07.214)
Yeah, because it's like my kids need something. Like she's that, like she manages the gym with me, but like she runs our lives. She, you know, she's like.

Basically, like she's the mom. That's number one. I'm like, that's your number one priority. And she has the time and the finances and all that to do so, you know, so that's, that's my main accomplishment.

Nick Castiglia (47:35.133)
Um, that's amazing. That's like an amazing accomplishment. Uh, one thing I'm going to, I'm going to throw in here is, um, and this is on top of the gym. And I think it's a relevant from like a business standpoint is you run the London open. The London open is one of the biggest tournaments in Ontario. How long have you been running that for now?

Steve Poulin (47:59.406)
You've done three years.

Nick Castiglia (48:01.981)
three years and three years in the last tournament had, I think it was like a thousand competitors, right?

Steve Poulin (48:09.07)
Yeah, a little over that I think.

Nick Castiglia (48:12.061)
Yeah. So like I know from being your friend and watching you from the outside, like in just three years, able to take a tournament from not existing to one of the biggest tournaments in Ontario. I think that's like, bro, like that's a massive accomplishment. What, what, how did you do that? How did you do that?

Steve Poulin (48:42.414)
Well, I brought you on board for one, bringing in experience. I tried really hard.

That was really it. What's what don't I like about other tournaments? What do I see could be improved upon? And then I just did all that. I basically took the same strategy I use for my gym. What do I like about other gyms? What don't I like? This is what I'll do. This is what I'll not do. Like for me, one of the main things is realizing that the schedule, the time, the efficiency of the schedule is really important to people. So.

You know, it became obvious that the referees are the rock stars of the tournament.

They need to be taken care of. Like, and if you don't, like it falls apart. You know, if this guy doesn't care that his mat's three hours behind, that's a problem. You know, but if, so to me early on, it was just that, like, just make sure, especially when we moved it to two days, the first couple of years, we just did one day, gi only. So adding the no gi, you're like, these people are on their feet for like 10 hours a day.

you know, two days, like they need to be taken care of. And then really just trying to run the day of like a Swiss watch, you know, like we did all the regular things, you know, Facebook, you know, and the email stuff and all that. But a lot of it is just like, if we can run this tournament, like a Swiss watch, people will notice and appreciate it.

Steve Poulin (50:31.374)
So that was really it.

Nick Castiglia (50:31.389)
Yeah.

You know what, we're seeing like a theme here, you know, because like I remember you, you talked about this earlier. Like, you just try, you try harder than everybody else. You know, I want to be.

Steve Poulin (50:47.118)
Trying as hard as I can. Doing the best I can.

Nick Castiglia (50:50.045)
Yeah, you know, and you're taking that energy, you're putting it into your gym, you're putting it into your teaching, you're putting it into your leadership training, you're putting it into learning, you know, like, would you say like, that like, if you were to accredit like one attribute, you're like, man, that's it, like, just most people, they don't have the grit or desire to like to do that. And it's not to do that one day.

to do that day after day. Would you agree with that?

Steve Poulin (51:22.126)
Yeah, complacency kills. Right. You're only as good as your last day, you know, your last tournament, your last whatever. So, um, I think people recognize effort. You know, like, uh, you don't always have to be the best to attract the right people. It's like, if you're, if it's clear that you're trying your best, most people appreciate that.

Nick Castiglia (51:54.845)
Okay, so we're, you know, I kind of want to just like, before I get to like the end and like what's the future, because like, I feel like there's a space, you know, like we're missing here, you know, about your story, because we, you get the gym successful, you had Wayne Tai, you took it away, you doubled down on what you're good at.

gym like re explodes again. I'm pretty sure you have something like, I don't know, 300 members or something like that. It's really financially successful. You got your gym. Um, it's super successful financially tournaments is a crazy success. Um, you know, I, I want you to talk about just like how, how you took this and, and, you know, you kind of touched on it like,

because you knew you didn't have a pension. You knew you didn't have a pension. You took your success and you said, okay, well, I gotta look out for tomorrow. Can you tell us kind of like what the success of your school and freeing up your time gave you the ability to do to look in some of the other avenues that you've done to create like alternate income streams for your life?

Steve Poulin (52:50.254)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (53:12.814)
Also, we have real estate properties that we invested in. And then I have a bunch of money in the stock market. I took an options trading course. Oddly enough, like again, it's through meeting people. It's through having, like I was in New York City on a training trip, just training with John and Dan when he was in New York and met my now super close friend, Barbie.

And she's in real estate investment. So when I had my second child, I lived in a small house. We owned it, like this little house. And I was talking to her about, I'm gonna sell this house and find a bigger one. And she's like, what if you didn't sell that house and just bought the bigger one? And I never really thought of myself as the type, you don't know what you don't know. And you think like, I grew up like poor.

shit, you know, so I'm like, I can't be a real estate investor. I don't know what I'm doing. It's like, but she does. And she was quite willing to guide us through it. So Barbie helped us really with our first prop, like moving into the house I live in while keeping my old house. And then we through again, contacts with Barbie and her real estate network. My wife started working with

consulting company that does like, you know, monthly events and things and learning a bunch of stuff about that. So we ended up, um, you know, taking the gyms surplus, I guess, and investing it in the stock market and real estate. The stock market course came about through the same people. Actually, it was an event. Um, one of the presenters was, uh, called the theta trading group and they were, uh,

options traders. I had never even heard of that to be honest but I was pretty good at math as a young person and my wife knew I had an interest in the stock market so she signed me up for a $3 ,000 options trading course that was on a weekend and I did that course and spent you know six months just kind of trading on like a paper account they call it and then got serious about it.

Steve Poulin (55:37.038)
put money in that so started investing in options trading and then real estate and yeah so that's kind of where we're looking for our you know pension so to speak.

Nick Castiglia (55:51.837)
Nice. And also you coach for legacy, you coach for legacy too.

Steve Poulin (55:57.582)
Yeah, I'd put that as one of my major accomplishments, I would say. You're asking major accomplishment is like if you get to the point where you're able to help others, then.

Pretty awesome.

Nick Castiglia (56:11.901)
Yeah, it's super, you know, like, and I've heard you talk about it, just, you know, I know you and I share the same thoughts of like, seeing, you know, doing for others what someone has done for us and changing their lives, like somebody else has helped us. Like, I'm sure you agree. It's so fulfilling, you know?

Steve Poulin (56:15.712)
you

Steve Poulin (56:33.71)
It's kind of like when your kid does something that makes you proud. It's like the same idea. You watch someone that when you first start working with them, because they feel the same way you did, right? I'm like a meathead martial art. Like I went to school for music. What do I know? What could I do? It's like, well, if you put the work in, you can do exactly what I'm doing. And that's really like...

with the clients I have, I'm essentially trying to give them the exact blueprint that I used. You know, it's like if you do what I'm telling you to do, you'll probably end up doing what I'm doing.

Nick Castiglia (57:17.405)
Yeah. And I know, and I know your clients are like two of your clients specifically, I'm not gonna name names or anything, but have like doubled their student base, like there's changed their life, you know? And another, you know, one of those people had their wife was able to quit her job. I'm sure it's a lot like seeing history repeat itself, you know, it's something, yeah, it's just something super, it's feels, it's those feel good moments, you know, it's not about the money, it's not about...

It's literally you're like, you know, you're a part of changing somebody's life.

Steve Poulin (57:51.15)
You can't beat that. Right? Like same with the gym itself. Like that's beyond the money or the anything is like when you see someone that I mean, you know, people tell us all the time. That's the beauty of this industry. People will tell you all the time. You have made my life better. You have like, you know, any they might not even say it in words. The dude was 300 pounds. He's 180 pounds, you know, jacked and loving his life like.

He doesn't have to tell you you've saved his life. You know, showing you every day. Like, uh, little kids that are parents come in, oh, he's got behavior issues. He's got, you know, many ADHDs I've fixed. You know, it's like, turns out often it's just like what they needed was maybe I'll say like different guidance or different methodology. Um,

Nick Castiglia (58:24.125)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Poulin (58:45.774)
And then you'll have those parents. Like I had a great one actually a couple months ago, a principal called the dad. That's never good, you know? So of course dad's like, ah crap, here we go. And the principal's calling to say like, look, when your kid showed up here, we see this, this is a bully. This is where this is heading. He's not a bully now, but this is where this is heading. You tell by his disposition, the way he acts, blah, blah.

And yeah, so the principal calls and says, what have you done? What is different? Because your son is like amazing. What have you done? And dad's like, it's gotta be the martial arts school. Because he is validated by, like he's not my helper. He's the one approaching the new kid.

Hey, I'll be your partner today. Relax. Don't don't be strict. Like I know it's nerve wracking. A lot of people here is loud. Yeah, I'm I'll be your partner. Tell you everything you need to know. I don't I don't tell them to do that. You know what I mean? We have these kids that are just so awesome. I don't tell them to do that. They just do it. I've adults that do that, you know, and it's like so to me like that when we're talking about measuring success or whatever, or like what are your major accomplishments? Something like that, I would say where you're like.

Cause I was that kid too. You know, I was the kid that the principal would be like, this kid's going to end up in jail a hundred percent. You know, like if you went back in time to my, you know, grade six principal or whatever, like, what do you think this guy's going to end up? How do you think this guy's going to end up? They're like, I don't know, prison, death, you know? So when you kind of help someone,

Nick Castiglia (01:00:32.157)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (01:00:41.422)
you know, maybe take a different path than they might have on their own. That's awesome. Like, because there's been enough of them over the years, you know, like that type of incident where how could you not feel amazing when someone's basically telling you like, you saved my kid's life to some degree, you know, like, you can't beat that in business if it's someone like, you know,

Nick Castiglia (01:00:47.631)
you

Nick Castiglia (01:00:57.149)
Yeah.

Steve Poulin (01:01:08.11)
they're struggling to survive and then they're buying investment properties or quitting their jobs or whatever. It's like, it's tough to beat. You know, like when we're talking about success and all that, it's like, there's various ways to measure it and using my metrics, well, that's to me, the success is like, how many people whose lives have you affected in a positive way? You know, cause...

Nick Castiglia (01:01:31.741)
Crazy, right? Zig Ziglar says...

Steve Poulin (01:01:36.334)
And the funny thing is like, cause I know this is about business, not a, you know, the feel good, a rah rah session. The more you care about people, the more money you make. Like, I look at the dollars as my primary objective, right? But the more I cared, the more.

more genuine you.

Nick Castiglia (01:02:01.181)
We're sorry, say that again, say that again.

Steve Poulin (01:02:02.862)
The more genuine you are about your concerns for people, right? Like I'm here to make your life better and I mean that.

Nick Castiglia (01:02:11.933)
Yeah, like, I read this Zig Ziglar book way a long time ago from one of my mentors, made me read it, pulled over the top. And this one saying stuck in my mind, I'm pretty sure it's in the first chapter. If you want to have whatever you want, you need to help everybody around you get what they want. And I never heard it put that way. And that's always kind of stuck with me.

Steve Poulin (01:02:32.142)
Nice.

Nick Castiglia (01:02:40.957)
What's a what's a future? What's the future for you and the submission academy or you separately and the submission academy? What's the future look like now?

Steve Poulin (01:02:53.454)
similar to now. Like to be honest, I'm not like when I was younger, I'm like, I'm gonna take out every other gym every other gym in the city. I'm gonna make I'll be the biggest gym the best like a thousand students for gyms. That's what I'm gonna do. Take over the city. Why would you train anywhere else? This is it. Well, and I think as I've gotten older, I'm like, that's not what I want. I want a culture that

Every day I'm at my gym, I'm happy to be there. I want the kind of culture that everyone else feels the same way. You know, it's their safe space. It's a positive place for them. So I don't really see my future. If I do things well, hopefully my future is the same as my present.

Nick Castiglia (01:03:43.389)
That's amazing. Such a great answer. Before I close us out, anything else, anything left you want to say to the people out there, other gym owners, maybe watching this, maybe going through a tough time, looking for hope, faith, guidance? I think the story that they've heard so far, like if you needed...

a kick in the butt or if you need motivation or you need a reason or story to hear that can make you more disciplined. I think this is an amazing episode for them to listen to. But what would be your closing words?

Steve Poulin (01:04:26.99)
You know, strive for improvement. You can't like, you know, read the books, do the workouts, get better, be better. Right? That's, it's, it's noticeable to others. It's contagious. Right? Like when you're constantly leveling up, those around you want to level up too.

Nick Castiglia (01:04:42.511)
you

Nick Castiglia (01:04:51.101)
That's awesome. You put that in like just a couple sentences, but very impactful. I just want to thank you, Steve, for being on the show today, sharing your history, going from the garage. I didn't know, like I was telling you before, there's always new things I find out. I didn't know about the garage or the backyard, into the karate school, into...

having one of the most successful schools in London, Ontario to having one of the biggest tournaments in Ontario. It's such a great and inspiring story and family man, of course, and it was really touching for you to share. Your biggest accomplishment was that your wife didn't have to work. And that is really, really sweet.

Thank you for being on the show with us. Guys, the Legacy Martial Arts Business Podcast. If you like what you heard and you wanna know more, check us out. You can check me and Steve out, legacymaconsulting .com. And you can join our free Facebook group, Martial Arts Gymnastics United. Again, Steve from the bottom of my heart, thank you very much. You're a gem. And we'll see you guys all in the next episode.

Steve Poulin (01:06:17.326)
Thanks for having me.